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Old 17-02-2017, 08:42   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivew View Post
Yes, and the critical change to make sure the car wasn't unstable at high speed was the bonnet which had no vents in it, along with suspension changes to also improve stability.

Vents in the bonnet reduce lift at the front of the car by allowing high pressure air to escape upwards out of the engine bay, which reduces lift at the front. If the vents are removed, the higher pressure air escape downwards under the car, increasing lift at the front.

This makes sure the centre of pressure doesn't move to a position that makes the car unstable, even if the rear spoiler isn't fitted.

Spot on
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Old 17-02-2017, 08:46   #107
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Originally Posted by ejabrod View Post
People then present the information that Mitsubishi spend millions on R&D and removing the spoiler would be undoing all that R&D and when presented with further information that the car was offered from factory without a spoiler reply (with a snigger) that Audi did the same?

I don't know, fair play to you all. Maybe you should reconsider who the real tools are
Yes, offered without a rear spoiler, and with other major changes made to the car to compensate for it, to make sure the car was still stable at high speed.
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Old 17-02-2017, 12:01   #108
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Originally Posted by Evosick View Post
Public road where I'm from only allow me to hit a max of 80mph so & prefer massoooive brakes unless I could do 160mph to get the lift off over steer which will not happen as fastest iv driven in any car is 139mph (Autobahn)WHICH IS more than ENOUGH AS I'M GIFTED WITH COMMON SENSE and rather be the one laughing at that thing that flew off rather than on it. Unless I had a 203mph BMW M5 which in that case I'd be waving past all you


Lift off over steer is a defo kool thing.

For Most rear wheel drivers as most front wheel drivers but the for that sheer thrill and madness of delivery of power.

Most 4x4's over engineering cause a bland driving experience compared to those hence why most buy cars such as C63 E55Amg, Megane R26r, Civic type R, etc etc

True drivers of Audis Quattro system the ultimate icon car and likes of Evo & Sti are also people who care about safety as it's been designed & development/Evolved over decades giving best power to weight ratio.

Again as this post has bought up its a matter of taste and we are all most welcome to our own views

BTW I didn't question you views of balance which actually is keeping center gravity ...right

Correct that if I'm wrong isn't that a term (Nasa) NASCAR & Jeremy Clarkson has used several hundred times to compliment & to describe how hyper cars have developed their vehicles to attain the balance(center gravity) and I'm not talking about centre of pressure that's more about the pressure of air travelling through certain aspects of certain objects mostly developed in a lab. As you know Centre gravity is a real world experiment mostly put to test on the track.

As you say Balance Imo it's about literally balance)ing Areo dynamic design with a chassis design ie ( body vs chassis) = balance

Centre gravity is putting both together and being able to tweak it enough to get a car that is fully balanced as you say which in other means if some one hasn't got even (balanced) tyre pressure will throw it all off balance so every aspect of the car surely as common sense needs to be balanced and have cemetery

From interior/exterior & chassis weight reduction to even driver position in most builds for a drag car also require balance.

Again in layman's term; what impact of removing the spolier/wing? keeps the car from lifting off is that the Evo keeps gravity balanced which the technical term is CENTRE GRAVITY

ANYONE REMEMBER WHAT HAPPEN TO RICHARD HAMMOND IN THAT ROCKET HE drove not something I'd do and especially what most intelligent individual ppl wouldn't do. I'd rather be going side ways faster in my M3 lol

BTW isn't gravity a form of pressure!!!
Clearly you still don't *really* know what you are talking about.

CENTRE of GRAVITY is only one element of balance. I already mentioned CENTRE OF PRESSURE.

It is the interplay between CofG and CofP (and weight transfer calculations, etc...) throughout the entire performance envelope that imbues a car with "balance", not simply CofG on its own in isolation...

If you'd like to get even more technical I can entertain you even further with concepts like weight distribution, polar moments of inertia and more that make up the overall balance of a car.

Yours Aye

Mark H
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Last edited by Rampant; 17-02-2017 at 16:52..
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Old 17-02-2017, 12:49   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evosick View Post
BTW I didn't question you views of balance which actually is keeping center gravity ...right

Correct that if I'm wrong isn't that a term (Nasa) NASCAR & Jeremy Clarkson has used several hundred times to compliment & to describe how hyper cars have developed their vehicles to attain the balance(center gravity) and I'm not talking about centre of pressure that's more about the pressure of air travelling through certain aspects of certain objects mostly developed in a lab. As you know Centre gravity is a real world experiment mostly put to test on the track.
The topic of this thread is about removing the rear wing.

Aerodynamic forces mainly affect the centre of pressure, and the effect on the centre of gravity will be extremely small (basically only happening if any downforce compresses the suspension)

So, the balance Mark is talking about is aerodynamic balance, nothing to do with mechanical balance.

The wing effects the position of the centre of pressure, and removing the wing changes this centre of pressure and the aerodynamic balance changes to a position that will make the car more unstable. The higher the speed, the more of an effect it has.

The only way to change the position of the centre of gravity is by physically moving mass around the car, or by raising or lowering the car.

Every object that has air going over it will have a centre of pressure; cars, aircraft, golf balls and if it is critical to the operation of the object then it's normally tested in a wind tunnel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evosick View Post
As you say Balance Imo it's about literally balance)ing Areo dynamic design with a chassis design ie ( body vs chassis) = balance
Yes, that's right, and removing the rear wing will change the aerodynamic balance. If the rear wing weighed 100kg, it would also change the centre of gravity, but it's very light so will have a negligible affect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evosick View Post
Centre gravity is putting both together and being able to tweak it enough to get a car that is fully balanced as you say which in other means if some one hasn't got even (balanced) tyre pressure will throw it all off balance so every aspect of the car surely as common sense needs to be balanced and have cemetery
No, the centre of gravity is not putting both together. They are seperate things but 'can' have an affect on each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evosick View Post
Again in layman's term; what impact of removing the spolier/wing? keeps the car from lifting off is that the Evo keeps gravity balanced which the technical term is CENTRE GRAVITY
The wing and other aerodynamic devices keep the centre of pressure in a position where the car is stable at higher speed. It doesn't balance gravity and is not the centre of gravity.

Gravity is a force due to the mass of an object, aerodynamic force is caused by an object travelling through a medium (air/gas/water etc)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evosick View Post
ANYONE REMEMBER WHAT HAPPEN TO RICHARD HAMMOND IN THAT ROCKET HE drove not something I'd do and especially what most intelligent individual ppl wouldn't do.
So you don't think Andy Green is intelligent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evosick View Post
BTW isn't gravity a form of pressure!!!
No, it's a force.

Last edited by Clivew; 17-02-2017 at 13:58.. Reason: Sorting my affects and effects!
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Old 17-02-2017, 13:26   #110
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As a matter of interest a few years ago a guy I know removed the rear wing from his Scooby, him and a mapper were doing a very high speed on the A3 and when he came off the throttle the back end went and he lost it. Smashed the car to bits.
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Old 17-02-2017, 16:51   #111
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Originally Posted by 2+barplease View Post
As a matter of interest a few years ago a guy I know removed the rear wing from his Scooby, him and a mapper were doing a very high speed on the A3 and when he came off the throttle the back end went and he lost it. Smashed the car to bits.
The removal of the wing was probably the highest contributory factor in this. Were the occupants OK?
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Old 17-02-2017, 16:58   #112
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End of the day mitsubushi developed the evo for group n rallying if the spoiler
Didn't have any meaningful effect I'm sure the rally teams would of taken them off the cars to save weight when they rallyed them, if you look at the rally cars 3/4/5/6/all have the standard rear spoiler. So they must be there for a reason
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Old 17-02-2017, 17:32   #113
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Anyone ever remember when the Audi TT was 1st released? It didn't have a spoiler fitted and loads where get stacked at speed due to no down force on the rear at speed.

They recalled them all to fit a boot spoiler and manufactured all TTs since with them fitted.

I've driven one of my old evos years ago without a spoiler due to refurb, back end was considerably light at high mph.
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Old 17-02-2017, 17:58   #114
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Hey


Page 4 of this thread you'll find this pic....




Interesting for something that some claim doesn't do anything ... though i think by now we all realise it actually does

In my case i lifted off the throttle and the rear end just came around. One person claimed on a subsequent thread that i had lifted too fast .... just how fast your expected to lift at those speeds approaching the end of the runway is beyond me..... load of rubbish anyway as the other runs within a few mph had been dandy as you would expect.

I removed the spoiler to reduce drag. I'd seen on previous runs how much it had been bending (and also creating an almighty roaring noise too IIRC) ... and i mean really bending in the same manner as you can see in the pic of Simon above. What could possibly go wrong?

I did hear a rumour that someone's spoiler had actually snapped on a high speed run a week or so later, not sure how true that is though.

Anyway some great info on this thread, makes it easy to understand how my spin happened .... in the days following the spin it was explained to me just how powerful the forces are that play upon a vehicle at high speed by someone in the know, it was a bit late at that point mind

Is this the reason manufacturers limit a lot of powerful cars to 155mph?
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Old 17-02-2017, 18:15   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ant1 View Post
Anyone ever remember when the Audi TT was 1st released? It didn't have a spoiler fitted and loads where get stacked at speed due to no down force on the rear at speed.

They recalled them all to fit a boot spoiler and manufactured all TTs since with them fitted.

I've driven one of my old evos years ago without a spoiler due to refurb, back end was considerably light at high mph.
Yes, on the TT, if I remember correctly there were lots of injuries caused by lift off oversteer.
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Old 17-02-2017, 18:37   #116
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Originally Posted by RichW View Post
Hey


Page 4 of this thread you'll find this pic....




Interesting for something that some claim doesn't do anything ... though i think by now we all realise it actually does

In my case i lifted off the throttle and the rear end just came around. One person claimed on a subsequent thread that i had lifted too fast .... just how fast your expected to lift at those speeds approaching the end of the runway is beyond me..... load of rubbish anyway as the other runs within a few mph had been dandy as you would expect.

I removed the spoiler to reduce drag. I'd seen on previous runs how much it had been bending (and also creating an almighty roaring noise too IIRC) ... and i mean really bending in the same manner as you can see in the pic of Simon above. What could possibly go wrong?

I did hear a rumour that someone's spoiler had actually snapped on a high speed run a week or so later, not sure how true that is though.

Anyway some great info on this thread, makes it easy to understand how my spin happened .... in the days following the spin it was explained to me just how powerful the forces are that play upon a vehicle at high speed by someone in the know, it was a bit late at that point mind

Is this the reason manufacturers limit a lot of powerful cars to 155mph?
Cars where limited to 155mph as fixed speed cameras originally couldn't capture cars past this speed.
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Old 17-02-2017, 21:01   #117
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Late to the party on this one and a nice read! I need not repeat the words of Mark and Clive. I've played with the wing settings and it's easily noticable on both the road and track.
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Old 18-02-2017, 00:53   #118
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Cars where limited to 155mph as fixed speed cameras originally couldn't capture cars past this speed.
I doubt that. If there was ever a time cameras couldn't record such speeds I doubt there was a car that could go 155.
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Old 18-02-2017, 07:47   #119
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The removal of the wing was probably the highest contributory factor in this. Were the occupants OK?
That was the cause apparently, the occupants were ok but I thank there was some brown trouser stains I'll see if I've still got a pic of the car.
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Old 18-02-2017, 07:59   #120
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I doubt that. If there was ever a time cameras couldn't record such speeds I doubt there was a car that could go 155.
The starship Enterprise on warp speed maybe.
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